Curse

Sainte · Sep 06, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

Mesmer healing, you mean single spell ether feast?

Ether Renewal allows to fill up Health and Energy to full in let's say 3 secs, don't you think something is not right here? Show me how to do that with other classes? and for healing you already have aura...

also your arguments are senseless IMHO, if you want to compare classes. Ele is meant to have best damage, Monk best healing, Necro best health draining, etc. That's why they are called _classes_.

I loved how I was in Random on my Elem/Mo smiter, and it took a team 1 1/2 minutes to kill me 4v1 because I kept using Ether + Orison + Touch + Reversal + Zealots. Finally they KDed me and killed me >.>

Rin · Sep 06, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I think it is overpowered, and I use it as my primary elite on my ele/Mo.

I usually have like 7 enchants on while it is activated:

Aura of Restoration (60 sec duration)
Bath's Aura (10 sec duration)
Zealot's fire (60 sec duration)
Protective Spirit (16 sec duration)
Healing Breeze (10 Sec duration)
Guardian(5 sec duration)
Ether Renewal (10 sec)

I get 5 energy and 19 health every time I cast a spell after I have all of these on me.
Which is like 30 energy (not counting the cost of the spell that I spam) and 114 health (including Aura Of Restoration) every time i spam reversal of fortune and Guardian.

-z|o- · Sep 06, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

So, only monk skills should be out of line? That does not make any kind of sense. Smites will yeild nearly 4 times the sustained damage output a elementalist hope to achieve and have virtually zero downtime. The sad thing is that not only do the smites provide sustained damage, the damage output rivials what elementalist skills can burst with and become smart weapons that work well with warriors and cover for some warrior weaknesses.

I really dont get the point of this paragraph in reference to my statement ..

Quote:

Its not even close actually. You must consider cast time, cost, and refresh times while comparing the space taken on the skill bar and the lack of additional effects occuring.

It is identical in terms of energy engine.

Quote:

ER is out of line with smites, because of the way monk skills work and because of how out of line smites are in raw damage potential.

Not sure if i understand you correctly, but as far as dmg itself goes smite isnt anything special. ER is out of line because it provides unlimited energy pool to fuel the smite, which turns a warrior into an "never-stopping-AoE-missle".

Quote:

To say that flare spam is out of line, is to say that conjure with wand/stance spam is out of line, is to say that rangers are out of line and so on.

It's not the flare .. it's how ER works with any spamable skill for that matter.

Quote:

Wards are useful and all, but you arent trying to compare armor of frost and earth to things like shielding hands, prot spirit, life bond, mark of protection, reversal of fortune and so on are you? Self only spells go so far, while targeted spells are on a totally different level.

So you suggest that every proffession should have heal/prot abilities like monks do?

Edit: As far as wards go they beat protection line by far in most cases. The fact that they are AoE and cant be removed makes them considarably superior to signle target enchantments some of which have recharge time dramaticaly exceeding duration time.

dargon · Sep 06, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Personally, I'd love to run into that ele with my mesmer/necro when he's grouped up with all his friends. One descrate enchantments later, bye bye opposing team

My mesmer/necro is level 15 right now with if, memory serves, a 7 in curses. That allows me to do 30ish + 12ish for each enchantment on my target, to my target and all his/her allies that are in close proximity. Given 80 maintained enchanments, that's approximately 1000 shadow dmg. I don't care if the ele can go from 1 to 500 in 1 second, he's dead before he can do it and the rest of the smite team, should they survive due to being out of range, is nolonger smiting as all their enchantments just died with the ele.

Epinephrine · Sep 06, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

smite teams are beaten every day over and over. it ER was so overpowered that would not be heppening. (as in the case of NR)

The reason smite teams lose isn't a failing of ER, but the fact that any team trying to play must now include tons of anti smite components in their build. ER allows smite the power it has, otherwise it would be limited to bursts of damage and such. Yes, smite itself isn't grossly overpowered - I happen to think it's overpowered in a few ways, but that's not necessarily the case; the fact is that ER is too powerful.

Balance should exist between the various classes, regardless of what you feel. While not all classes need to be dealing the exact same damage or type of damage, they should be within a reasonable range of one another. ER trumps every other energy regen out there, and by a lot. Heck, even if elementalists were meant to have the best energy management (and given that they have a huge pool already, and that mesmers have an attribute devoted to energy manipulation, I don't think they should) it still trumps all the other elites for the elementalist: after all, they have Ether Prodigy, Glyph of Energy and Elemental Attunement as energy management elites. And those offer 4 pips with a risk of damage and losing it all at the end, 2.8125 pips and only if you cast 20 energy+ spells, and about 4 pips, if you were to spend 160 energy in that 45 second peeriod. So give or take 3 pips would be about reasonable as an average.

How do these compare with Offering of Blood or Energy Drain? Both of these come in around the 3 pip mark, and each also has disadvantages - you need to sacrifice health for one of them, and you need to pick a target that has energy to steal for the other - granted, not that tough, but it is a condition. Peace and Harmony is laughable, and Blessed Signet can provide a lot of energy, about 6 pips at peak, but only if you are maintaining a lot of enchantments - which costs energy, so you don't actually net anything from it, as to get 6 pips from it you must be supporting 8 pips worth of enchantments. The fact is that the ridiculous energy provided by ER also comes with free health! The skill is absurd.

I've never really agreed with most of your posts, but this one takes the cake for showing why.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 06, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

lots of options for health /energy regen, at least more than an ele

I wrote a long reply, but deleted it - I don't want to sidetrack this thread. Just for the record, though, I will state that I disagree with what you say here.

Epinephrine · Sep 06, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Personally, I'd love to run into that ele with my mesmer/necro when he's grouped up with all his friends. One descrate enchantments later, bye bye opposing team

My mesmer/necro is level 15 right now with if, memory serves, a 7 in curses. That allows me to do 30ish + 12ish for each enchantment on my target, to my target and all his/her allies that are in close proximity. Given 80 maintained enchanments, that's approximately 1000 shadow dmg. I don't care if the ele can go from 1 to 500 in 1 second, he's dead before he can do it and the rest of the smite team, should they survive due to being out of range, is nolonger smiting as all their enchantments just died with the ele.

Off topic, but: No, it's damage per enchanment on each creature, separately. Each only has about 7 enchantments on them, so it'd be 30+7*12=114 damage. Not exactly thrilling. Even maxed out you are only getting ~22 per enchantment, and that's at 16 curses IIRC. Granted, it'd be a lot of damage, but it goes to show how weak desecrate is - the ultimate situation in which it should be ultra powerful and it still only does about 200 damage to your opponent, with a 16 curses and the opponent wearing 7 enchantments! If they cut its recharge time a bit it'd be more useable, but a 15 second recharge on a spell that will often do only about 60 damage is not overly impressive.

Homo · Sep 06, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Why hasn't anyone talked about the rate of energy lose due to -10 energy degen. On the first page someone said you lose 10 energy every 3 sec. That doesn't seem right because with -10 degen on health you lose more than 10 hp in 3 sec. I would imagine that at the rate of -10 energy degen is something around 20-25 energy every 3 sec.

Lasareth · Sep 06, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

One arrow of energy regeneration is about 1/3 energy in one second. It's not the same rate as hp regen.

Mercury Angel · Sep 06, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homo

Why hasn't anyone talked about the rate of energy lose due to -10 energy degen. On the first page someone said you lose 10 energy every 3 sec. That doesn't seem right because with -10 degen on health you lose more than 10 hp in 3 sec. I would imagine that at the rate of -10 energy degen is something around 20-25 energy every 3 sec.

1 pip of energy = 1 energy per 3 seconds
1 pip of health = 2 health per 1 second.

Mr Zun · Sep 06, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

U know what after reading 5 pages of this crap i still dont see why ppl are still saying that ER is out of balance... what i mean is anything that can be counterd is not out of balance i mean any good Guild team in a gvg battle at the stage this game is knows to have atleast 1 necro with rend and 1 mes with shatter.

So i just dont get it.

IxChel · Sep 06, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zun

U know what after reading 5 pages of this crap i still dont see why ppl are still saying that ER is out of balance... what i mean is anything that can be counterd is not out of balance i mean any good Guild team in a gvg battle at the stage this game is knows to have atleast 1 necro with rend and 1 mes with shatter.

There are about 3-4 threads which deal with this subject; you kinda have
to be reading them all to follow the discussion. I realize what you're
getting at -- and many people are making the same point -- unfortunately,
when you "do the numbers" they just don't add up.

The problem with the "just counter ER" argument is that you spend far
more talent, skill slots, energy and time countering ER than you spend
running ER. So, once you've negated the "bonus" of ER, the countering
team is still in a very large deficit; in terms of ability to deal damage.

For example, if you have 2 me/ne for every 3 el/mo (and I'm being
generous with a 1.5 shutdown); you now have two soft targets with
very little damage dealing ability and poor self-healing. Take those
two down via a unbuffed warrior and the el/mo's are back-in-business.

Mercury Angel · Sep 06, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45301

Eonwe · Sep 06, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

it seems as if all you have offered is a NERF!!!

not that that surprises me too much though.

when you are not good enough to counter something hell nerf it.

Yay! <*snip!*> But please, keep falling back upon that "Skill A is balanced because Skill B counters it" argument, it just demonstrates your lack of knowledge.

Since it seems that many people did not take the time to actually read the post that I had a link to before they started rambling on, I'll just paste it here.

Skills are broken when they do far more for their cost than comparable skills. They begin to hedge out options and create degenerate environments. The fact that Leech Signet exists does not make every spell fundamentally fair. Sure, you can counter nearly every skill with Leech Signet. So what? Does that mean that the game is going to be fundamentally balanced no matter how ridiculous some of those spells happen to be? Of course not.

Skills need to be balanced in the absence of counters, against comparable spells, against other skills with similar energy costs and cast times and cooldowns. Otherwise you have non-choices and degenerate environments, and that doesn't make for a vibrant, thriving game in the long run.

salja Wachi · Sep 06, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

"I've never really agreed with most of your posts, but this one takes the cake for showing why."

as far as agreing with my posts you are of course free fo disagree or agre however much you ike to

but that being said I never blamed a failure of ER for the losses of smite team i give credit to the teams that actually bring counters to it and succeed with them. it is not because of ER that they lose it is because they have built a great defense agains ER. (that tells me that it does not need to be nerfed)

this is not like the case of NR when you could just spam away.

like i said before it is a high powered skill but there are reasons for it being high powered, and now that more and more smite teams are losing in tombs there will be more and more different builds out there to deal with, and i am pretty sure that is wht we all want to see.

Silmor · Sep 06, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Elementalists aren't great at keeping themselves alive, that's for sure (still better than mesmers, who only have the easily interruptable Ether Feast and Illusion of Weakness - which is more of a conditional failsafe than a real heal). Aura of Restoration typically doesn't heal enough to cope with incoming damage, and usually just heals you when you're at full health anyway. They're quite decent when it comes to damage prevention though (especially the earth line), but all in all self-healing is simply not the focus of the class. Each class has specific specializations, and Elementalists are supposed to shine when it comes to Big Damage. There's therefore no justification whatsoever to have an elite providing powerful self-heal options - it goes against the nature of the rest of the class.

But the claim is that skills are balanced. Let's look at two skills from the same attribute line: Ether Renewal and Ether Prodigy.
- Both can be countered through single removal or interrupt; Ether Prodigy can be reapplied faster after removal but at the expense of mounting exhaustion and damage every time it's forced to end through removal.
- With one or two additional enchantments going, Ether Renewal blows Ether Prodigy out of the water when it comes to recovered energy per second.
- Ether Prodigy actually damages you when it finishes, whereas Ether Renewal showers you with heals in its duration

Balanced, right.

Epinephrine · Sep 06, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Zun

U know what after reading 5 pages of this crap i still dont see why ppl are still saying that ER is out of balance... what i mean is anything that can be counterd is not out of balance i mean any good Guild team in a gvg battle at the stage this game is knows to have atleast 1 necro with rend and 1 mes with shatter.

So i just dont get it.

That makes no sense. If I had a spell that was casting cost 5, recharges every 5 seconds and instantly kills the target it would be grossly overpowered. Yet by your logic, since a mesmer could simply babysit me and counter it it isn't overpowered. That is the weakest argument out there.

Yamat · Sep 06, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

As soon as he runs out of energy, which will happen about 10 seconds after ether renewal ends, he'll be back down to 4 enchants. No biggie.

JYX · Sep 06, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

I'm staggered by the lack of ability to read and comprehend simple concepts around here.

Mercury Angel · Sep 06, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

As soon as he runs out of energy, which will happen about 10 seconds after ether renewal ends, he'll be back down to 4 enchants. No biggie.

The mass enchanter? If that's what you're talking about, you didn't read enough of the thread. -10 energy degeneration over 22 seconds = 66 energy loss. 100 energy - 66 = 33. Enough to recast Ether's Renewal, spam boon, and get you back up yo 100.

Sapping his energy while Ether Renewal is down is the counter, but this build wasn't made to be practical, it was made to make a point.